[Ramzi]

Location: Ontario, Canada

Greetings future fellow Atlas owners!

My wife and I (parents of two young children) are looking to purchase an Atlas Cross Sport 2020 (AWD) and are debating between the 2.0L and the 3.6L engine.

I’ve read that the fuel consumption on both os pretty similar but I’ve always known that v6 engines consume at least 15-20% more fuel than their v4 counterparts.

We’ve never really needed to hitch anything to our vehicle and have never owned a v6 vehicle before since we’ve mostly lived in cities and fuel consumption/environment is an important factor.

From your experience with the Atlas and/or Cross Sport, which engine would you recommend?

Thanks!!

 

[MrAtlas]

Welcome to the forum Ramzi

I had a '17 Jetta SEL with the 4cyl Turbo and it had plenty of power and then some, I'm sure it would work for your use stated above.

For me personally I went with the V6 in the event that my truck was not available for a tow providing it was on the lighter side
the thing that really amazed me was my insurance was less on my Atlas because or the non turbo engine, I actually called
to make sure it was not a mistake and it wasn't.

I'm sure more members will be checking in so hang in there

Again, Welcome !

 

[Ramzi]

Welcome to the forum Ramzi

I had a '17 Jetta SEL with the 4cyl Turbo and it had plenty of power and then some, I'm sure it would work for your use stated above.

For me personally I went with the V6 in the event that my truck was not available for a tow providing it was on the lighter side
the thing that really amazed me was my insurance was less on my Atlas because or the non turbo engine, I actually called
to make sure it was not a mistake and it wasn't.

I'm sure more members will be checking in so hang in there

Again, Welcome !

Hey MrAtlas!

I test drove both and found that they drive very differently since the v4 has the turbo kicking in!

From the looks of it, we will be settling for a 2.0 since we are getting quite a sweet deal for the in-shop demo

 

[MrAtlas]

Hey Ramzi,

Fantastic News ! be sure to post up a few pictures when you take delivery

 

[gra8dane]

Location: Ontario, Canada

Greetings future fellow Atlas owners!

My wife and I (parents of two young children) are looking to purchase an Atlas Cross Sport 2020 (AWD) and are debating between the 2.0L and the 3.6L engine.

I’ve read that the fuel consumption on both os pretty similar but I’ve always known that v6 engines consume at least 15-20% more fuel than their v4 counterparts.

We’ve never really needed to hitch anything to our vehicle and have never owned a v6 vehicle before since we’ve mostly lived in cities and fuel consumption/environment is an important factor.

From your experience with the Atlas and/or Cross Sport, which engine would you recommend?

Thanks!!

I owned a 3.6 Atlas for 3 years and have now had a 3.6 cross-sport for 2 months. Average mileage around town/city is predictably about 18-19 mpg and highway driving at an average of 70-75 mph I'd put predictable average around 26. I find the 3.6 suitable for the size and weight of the cross-sport. With the improved steering and handling, the power is quite adequate and while not a true German luxury car, it is a very worthy vehicle. I do pull a utility trailer for various reasons...therefore never even considered the 4 cylinder option.

 

[STHEONE]

I'd always go with EA888 Gen3, though it has lower output than the VR6, but you can always APR tune the car. With Stage 1 you still have factory warranty and you will end up with more power and torque than the VR6.

 

[JimGravelle]

I'd always go with EA888 Gen3, though it has lower output than the VR6, but you can always APR tune the car. With Stage 1 you still have factory warranty and you will end up with more power and torque than the VR6.

Any ECU upgrades/modifications performed on your VW by anyone other than Volkswagen will most definitely void your warranty! This is really bad advice.

 

[STHEONE]

Any ECU upgrades/modifications performed on your VW by anyone other than Volkswagen will most definitely void your warranty! This is really bad advice.

You might want to look further into this. APR Performance and VAG has some kind of cooperation. Their APR+ or APR Stage 1 tune is covered under FULL factory warranty, b/c the tune can only be done by authorized shops, including VAG dealerships. At lease in the US, this is an option. (and a huge upgrade too, 300+hp with AKI 91 or higher fuel)

I've done a thorough research about this and asked my local dealership's service dept. I'm sure it's covered. B/c I don't want to void the warranty of my daily driver and I want it to be reliable.

Otherwise, if you're really against it, for slightly more power and torque, go with the VR6 then.

But still, I'd personally recommend the EA888 because it's turbocharged and there's a lot of low-end torque that helps you get off the line quick, and relatively quick in highway conditions. In city driving, VR6 feels kind of sloppy b/c you won't always have chance to rev it high. I've driven both prior to making the purchase.

CORRECTION: In Canada only APR Plus is covered with full factory warranty.
For more details, go to their official website APR ECU-20T-EA888-3-T-IS20-ATLAS APR ECU Upgrade - 2.0T EA888 Gen 3 IS20 (Transverse) (Atlas)

 

[KarstGeo]

Any ECU upgrades/modifications performed on your VW by anyone other than Volkswagen will most definitely void your warranty! This is really bad advice.

What is being recommended is doing teh APR "Plus" tune - it's the low-output Stage 1 but comes with a third-party warranty to cover what VW won't for $400 more on top of the Stage 1 cost. Sound advice if you are looking for more power with v. little/any risk w/r to warranty claims on the powertrain.

 

[KarstGeo]

You might want to look further into this. APR Performance and VAG has some kind of cooperation. Their APR+ or APR Stage 1 tune is covered under FULL factory warranty, b/c the tune can only be done by authorized shops, including VAG dealerships. At lease in the US, this is an option. (and a huge upgrade too, 300+hp with AKI 91 or higher fuel)

I've done a thorough research about this and asked my local dealership's service dept. I'm sure it's covered. B/c I don't want to void the warranty of my daily driver and I want it to be reliable.

Otherwise, if you're really against it, for slightly more power and torque, go with the VR6 then.

But still, I'd personally recommend the EA888 because it's turbocharged and there's a lot of low-end torque that helps you get off the line quick, and relatively quick in highway conditions. In city driving, VR6 feels kind of sloppy b/c you won't always have chance to rev it high. I've driven both prior to making the purchase.

CORRECTION: In Canada only APR Plus is covered with full factory warranty.
For more details, go to their official website APR ECU-20T-EA888-3-T-IS20-ATLAS APR ECU Upgrade - 2.0T EA888 Gen 3 IS20 (Transverse) (Atlas)

A bit off here. The "plus" tune includes a third-party warranty that covers what VW won't under the factory warranty...not a factory warranty or affiliated with VW in anyway, just an extra layer of protection. Keep in mind, when you tune your car, you aren't "voiding" anything but you are now potentially on the hook for claims that VW won't cover such a failed turbo, awd unit, trans, etc. In those cases, the Plus warranty will cover those expenses. It is true that there are VW dealers that are also APR dealers but never confuse that if you tune your car, regardless if it's at a dealer or private shop, VW makes the call on warranty claims being paid out, not the dealer I don't care how "mod friendly" they claim to be. There is probably more confusion and bad info out there w/r to this topic than any other in the community.

 

[STHEONE]

A bit off here. The "plus" tune includes a third-party warranty that covers what VW won't under the factory warranty...not a factory warranty or affiliated with VW in anyway, just an extra layer of protection. Keep in mind, when you tune your car, you aren't "voiding" anything but you are now potentially on the hook for claims that VW won't cover such a failed turbo, awd unit, trans, etc. In those cases, the Plus warranty will cover those expenses. It is true that there are VW dealers that are also APR dealers but never confuse that if you tune your car, regardless if it's at a dealer or private shop, VW makes the call on warranty claims being paid out, not the dealer I don't care how "mod friendly" they claim to be. There is probably more confusion and bad info out there w/r to this topic than any other in the community.

I agree, there's technically nothing can "void" the warranty. (this is also what my dealer service manager told me)
But after all APR is still a third-party brand. Some dealers also have ambiguous statements about the warranty.
But whether a faulty item can be covered under warranty or not, depend on the service manager at the dealership (at lease this is the way BMW warranty works) I had an experience in the past, one faulty part is not covered by our local dealer but the same issue is covered with the dealer 50mi away. That one ended up to be my preferred one. VW may have different policies and structures for their warranty claims, that is yet to be found out.

But a blown engine is unlikely to be covered in normal circumstances. So it really comes to your relationship with your local dealer.
However, severe issues like a failed turbo or a blown trans are very unlikely to be caused by a merely stage 1 tune.

So let me rephrase my standpoint.
Both engine choices are pretty underpowered for a big car like Cross Sport in my opinion.

Tune or not, I recommend EA888 for a daily driver, especially in the cities. That low-rev responsiveness is something to like. If you prefer a larger engine, slightly more power, maybe even better exhaust sound, go with VR6. (Or some features offered with VR6 and not offered in the EA888 trim levels)

But if you tune, turbo engines do offer much easier power boost mods compared to N/A engines.
And having a Plus warranty or even just APR offered warranty is better than nothing, as they will also reimburse you for the repair, if, though unlikely, you do blow a turbo with a stage 1 tune. It's a manageable risk for more than 50HP power gain.

 

[JimGravelle]

I agree, there's technically nothing can "void" the warranty. (this is also what my dealer service manager told me)
But after all APR is still a third-party brand. Some dealers also have ambiguous statements about the warranty.
But whether a faulty item can be covered under warranty or not, depend on the service manager at the dealership (at lease this is the way BMW warranty works) I had an experience in the past, one faulty part is not covered by our local dealer but the same issue is covered with the dealer 50mi away. That one ended up to be my preferred one. VW may have different policies and structures for their warranty claims, that is yet to be found out.

But a blown engine is unlikely to be covered in normal circumstances. So it really comes to your relationship with your local dealer.
However, severe issues like a failed turbo or a blown trans are very unlikely to be caused by a merely stage 1 tune.

So let me rephrase my standpoint.
Both engine choices are pretty underpowered for a big car like Cross Sport in my opinion.

Tune or not, I recommend EA888 for a daily driver, especially in the cities. That low-rev responsiveness is something to like. If you prefer a larger engine, slightly more power, maybe even better exhaust sound, go with VR6. (Or some features offered with VR6 and not offered in the EA888 trim levels)

But if you tune, turbo engines do offer much easier power boost mods compared to N/A engines.
And having a Plus warranty or even just APR offered warranty is better than nothing, as they will also reimburse you for the repair, if, though unlikely, you do blow a turbo with a stage 1 tune. It's a manageable risk for more than 50HP power gain.

I can’t speak to how things are done in the US, but here in Canada any warranty work needs to be approved by VW Canada first...simply because VW Canada pays the bill for the parts and labour...not the dealership. Unless your VW Service Manager is wiling to flip the bill for such work...which is a different situation all together, but I can’t see them doing that too often without going out of business.

I read the APR Warranty document on their website, and I found a number of items that are red flags to me, such as their definition of replacement parts:

“Replacement Parts” - Replacement Parts may be new, remanufactured, or Replacement Parts of like kind and quality. The cost of repairs or replacements are not to exceed the actual cash value of the Vehicle immediately prior to Breakdown.

Sounds like a catch-all clause where they can use whatever is the cheapest solution for them...can you tell I’ve been burned by similar ‘warranties’ in the past. 🧐

The guy that owns the shop I go to was once a Service Manager at a VW dealership, and when I asked him if a tune (such as the APR one) would void my powertrain warranty with VW Canada, he said “most definitely”. There are several instance I’ve read over the past two years about people that had tunes done to their 2.0L turbo engine that comes in the MQB Tiguan; when they brought their vehicle in for warranty repairs where the dealership discovered there was tuning/mods performed on the vehicle...the owner had to pay out of pocket for the repairs. The warranty paying for the repair was refused.

An example was an issue I read the other day on the VWVortex site about a guy that had the APR tune done, and when the dealership scanned his ECU the firmware update count didn‘t match what VW had on file, which indicated it had been tampered with or updated by someone not with VW. He got lucky and the Service Manager didn‘t hold it against him (for whatever reason he didn’t go into detail about)...but it could have gotten very expensive for him if the repairs weren’t covered under warranty.

Personally I don’t think it’s worth the chance of having any warranty work refused. I also checked the APR site, and all APR shops around me in Toronto, Canada are independent shops...they aren’t VW dealers. There are a couple of VW dealers that do mods & tunes of other sorts (ie. not APR), but they do warn that it could jeopardize your drivetrain warranty...did some research when I was thinking about doing stuff to my 2018 Tiguan when I first bought it.

I also believe its a personal decision of 2.0T vs VR6....for me I didn’t mind the VR6 drive-ability, power and sound...and I liked the idea of 5,000 lb towing capacity and not having to put premium unleaded in whenever I wanted the HP I was paying for...but that’s just me. ✌

To be absolutely sure I guess someone who is seriously considering the APR tune (or similar) could contact VW Canada or US and ask them directly if such a change could affect their drivetrain warranty...and perhaps get something in writing if they say it won’t. I wouldn’t rely on just what the local dealership is telling me...

Cheers...

 

[STHEONE]

I can’t speak to how things are done in the US, but here in Canada any warranty work needs to be approved by VW Canada first...simply because VW Canada pays the bill for the parts and labour...not the dealership. Unless your VW Service Manager is wiling to flip the bill for such work...which is a different situation all together, but I can’t see them doing that too often without going out of business.

I read the APR Warranty document on their website, and I found a number of items that are red flags to me, such as their definition of replacement parts:

“Replacement Parts” - Replacement Parts may be new, remanufactured, or Replacement Parts of like kind and quality. The cost of repairs or replacements are not to exceed the actual cash value of the Vehicle immediately prior to Breakdown.

Sounds like a catch-all clause where they can use whatever is the cheapest solution for them...can you tell I’ve been burned by similar ‘warranties’ in the past. 🧐

The guy that owns the shop I go to was once a Service Manager at a VW dealership, and when I asked him if a tune (such as the APR one) would void my powertrain warranty with VW Canada, he said “most definitely”. There are several instance I’ve read over the past two years about people that had tunes done to their 2.0L turbo engine that comes in the MQB Tiguan; when they brought their vehicle in for warranty repairs where the dealership discovered there was tuning/mods performed on the vehicle...the owner had to pay out of pocket for the repairs. The warranty paying for the repair was refused.

An example was an issue I read the other day on the VWVortex site about a guy that had the APR tune done, and when the dealership scanned his ECU the firmware update count didn‘t match what VW had on file, which indicated it had been tampered with or updated by someone not with VW. He got lucky and the Service Manager didn‘t hold it against him (for whatever reason he didn’t go into detail about)...but it could have gotten very expensive for him if the repairs weren’t covered under warranty.

Personally I don’t think it’s worth the chance of having any warranty work refused. I also checked the APR site, and all APR shops around me in Toronto, Canada are independent shops...they aren’t VW dealers. There are a couple of VW dealers that do mods & tunes of other sorts (ie. not APR), but they do warn that it could jeopardize your drivetrain warranty...did some research when I was thinking about doing stuff to my 2018 Tiguan when I first bought it.

I also believe its a personal decision of 2.0T vs VR6....for me I didn’t mind the VR6 drive-ability, power and sound...and I liked the idea of 5,000 lb towing capacity and not having to put premium unleaded in whenever I wanted the HP I was paying for...but that’s just me. ✌

To be absolutely sure I guess someone who is seriously considering the APR tune (or similar) could contact VW Canada or US and ask them directly if such a change could affect their drivetrain warranty...and perhaps get something in writing if they say it won’t. I wouldn’t rely on just what the local dealership is telling me...

Cheers...

Thank you for the extensive amount of info about the situation here in Canada. Good to know. Though my account appeared to be registered in Canada, I literally just came to Ontario for a couple of days. So there's a lot to learn.

You are right. For someone (including me) who seriously considering getting an APR tune, they should definitely contact VW Canada and APR officially and get answers. Or just willing to take the risk and accept whatever the repair APR warranty can offer, or worst case, pay for repair for it themselves.
Me stating some info about APR was only out of my personal interest, NOT to encourage average owner all go and do it.

About the car:
Also, I understand that majority of the owners are kind of scared when they heard something could "void the warranty of xxx". The fact is that a major drivetrain part will not break, within the warranty period, w/ or w/o the tune, in most cases. (marketing scam or not, this is literally most of the cases)
Each major components on the vehicle is designed with a certain amount of headroom for stress endurance. For example, your stock engine output is 500hp, the engineering headroom for the engine is 20%, you can raise the power output to 600hp and theoretically not cause any damage to the drivetrain. (In some cases, trans, diff, driveshaft and half-shaft can withstand more stress than the engine parts, thus maybe rated to 650hp)
Since EA888 and the MQB platform is shared by multiple vehicles, the rated specs are not that hard to find.

If you tune it:
Surely, tuning the car for more power will reduce the lifespan of the parts involved, but it takes a very long time for the affect to show some symptoms. By then, you are most likely to be out of factory warranty, w/ or w/o tune, you have to pay for the repair.
But we are only talking about a stage 1 tune here, not some extreme 600HP mod. APR is a large company who did stability test of their tune prior the release. So critical issues like a blown engine, turbo, trans, transfer case, or even a shaft caused by the tune is very unlikely, unless you track the car, tow heavy weight, or bashing the car off-road, on a very frequent basis (problems can also happen even if you're bone-stock b/c the stress is much higher under these extreme using conditions, or at best, extra wear of some parts like the brake pads is unavoidable).

I hope this can clear up some fear of the unknown. But still, I DO NOT recommend average daily owner go tune the car, unless you are absolutely sure that you want it, or you know what you are doing.
Also, you can always flash the car back to stock whenever you feel like to.

Back to the choice (VR6 or EA888?):
Anyways, since this post is asking about VR6 or EA888, it's obviously down to personal preference. Me choosing the EA888, I prefer the earlier available torque, and don't mind that few horses short. Also, fuel economy wise, EA888 can easily achieve a 30+mpg with highway speeds. And of course, APR-availability is an important factor.
For the VR6 models, I like the fact that it is officially claimed to be able to tow 5000lbs and VW dealer can install the hitch. Or some models can have hitch and wiring pre-installed. That's a very big plus.

To be clear though, EA888 Gen 3 DOES NOT require premium fuel. I once fed it with AKI 87, it was fine and no CEL. I feed it with AKI 89 regularly. Only recently when I had to tow about 3000lbs and I feed it with AKI 91 or 93 (when available).
FYI, the max engine output claimed is usually tested with either AKI 91 or AKI 93 fuel. If you feed the VR6 with 87, it will be a couple of horses short, probably similar to a stock EA888 fed with 91 or 93. (I don't have the exact data, but I've seen tests with other sport cars regarding fuel grades)

For towing,
I had the 5000lbs rated hitch and wiring installed by U-Haul and I recently towed about 3000lbs for more than 1000mi of highway, city, uphill, downhill in dry, wet and snow conditions. Everything was fine along the trip. I travel about 60-70mph on the highway and had to frequently stop in the cities, and surprisingly it did a 15mpg combined.
And I was actually surprised by the EA888 and the 4 motion. I mostly put it in normal mode along the way. For a couple of times, I had to stop at the uphill intersection with inches of snow or slush, with the 3000lbs trailer, the car can easily pull off and I didn't feel any slip at all. I'm on the rather rubbish stock Goodyear Assurance tires. I checked, it was the cheapest variant, with only 5 of 10 of snow performance from Tirerack.com. I was travelling after midnight, so roads weren't cleared yet.

If you tow heavy stuff frequently, please GO with VR6, as it is officially supported by VW. EA888 can tow, but it is not officially supported. VW dealers will not install the hitch for you.
But I'm curious, hardware and software wise, what is the difference? Is there any specific tweaks that damage proof the vehicle while towing? Anyone who knows about this are welcome to comment.

 

[JimGravelle]

Thank you for the extensive amount of info about the situation here in Canada. Good to know. Though my account appeared to be registered in Canada, I literally just came to Ontario for a couple of days. So there's a lot to learn.

You are right. For someone (including me) who seriously considering getting an APR tune, they should definitely contact VW Canada and APR officially and get answers. Or just willing to take the risk and accept whatever the repair APR warranty can offer, or worst case, pay for repair for it themselves.
Me stating some info about APR was only out of my personal interest, NOT to encourage average owner all go and do it.

About the car:
Also, I understand that majority of the owners are kind of scared when they heard something could "void the warranty of xxx". The fact is that a major drivetrain part will not break, within the warranty period, w/ or w/o the tune, in most cases. (marketing scam or not, this is literally most of the cases)
Each major components on the vehicle is designed with a certain amount of headroom for stress endurance. For example, your stock engine output is 500hp, the engineering headroom for the engine is 20%, you can raise the power output to 600hp and theoretically not cause any damage to the drivetrain. (In some cases, trans, diff, driveshaft and half-shaft can withstand more stress than the engine parts, thus maybe rated to 650hp)
Since EA888 and the MQB platform is shared by multiple vehicles, the rated specs are not that hard to find.

If you tune it:
Surely, tuning the car for more power will reduce the lifespan of the parts involved, but it takes a very long time for the affect to show some symptoms. By then, you are most likely to be out of factory warranty, w/ or w/o tune, you have to pay for the repair.
But we are only talking about a stage 1 tune here, not some extreme 600HP mod. APR is a large company who did stability test of their tune prior the release. So critical issues like a blown engine, turbo, trans, transfer case, or even a shaft caused by the tune is very unlikely, unless you track the car, tow heavy weight, or bashing the car off-road, on a very frequent basis (problems can also happen even if you're bone-stock b/c the stress is much higher under these extreme using conditions, or at best, extra wear of some parts like the brake pads is unavoidable).

I hope this can clear up some fear of the unknown. But still, I DO NOT recommend average daily owner go tune the car, unless you are absolutely sure that you want it, or you know what you are doing.
Also, you can always flash the car back to stock whenever you feel like to.

Back to the choice (VR6 or EA888?):
Anyways, since this post is asking about VR6 or EA888, it's obviously down to personal preference. Me choosing the EA888, I prefer the earlier available torque, and don't mind that few horses short. Also, fuel economy wise, EA888 can easily achieve a 30+mpg with highway speeds. And of course, APR-availability is an important factor.
For the VR6 models, I like the fact that it is officially claimed to be able to tow 5000lbs and VW dealer can install the hitch. Or some models can have hitch and wiring pre-installed. That's a very big plus.

To be clear though, EA888 Gen 3 DOES NOT require premium fuel. I once fed it with AKI 87, it was fine and no CEL. I feed it with AKI 89 regularly. Only recently when I had to tow about 3000lbs and I feed it with AKI 91 or 93 (when available).
FYI, the max engine output claimed is usually tested with either AKI 91 or AKI 93 fuel. If you feed the VR6 with 87, it will be a couple of horses short, probably similar to a stock EA888 fed with 91 or 93. (I don't have the exact data, but I've seen tests with other sport cars regarding fuel grades)

For towing,
I had the 5000lbs rated hitch and wiring installed by U-Haul and I recently towed about 3000lbs for more than 1000mi of highway, city, uphill, downhill in dry, wet and snow conditions. Everything was fine along the trip. I travel about 60-70mph on the highway and had to frequently stop in the cities, and surprisingly it did a 15mpg combined.
And I was actually surprised by the EA888 and the 4 motion. I mostly put it in normal mode along the way. For a couple of times, I had to stop at the uphill intersection with inches of snow or slush, with the 3000lbs trailer, the car can easily pull off and I didn't feel any slip at all. I'm on the rather rubbish stock Goodyear Assurance tires. I checked, it was the cheapest variant, with only 5 of 10 of snow performance from Tirerack.com. I was travelling after midnight, so roads weren't cleared yet.

If you tow heavy stuff frequently, please GO with VR6, as it is officially supported by VW. EA888 can tow, but it is not officially supported. VW dealers will not install the hitch for you.
But I'm curious, hardware and software wise, what is the difference? Is there any specific tweaks that damage proof the vehicle while towing? Anyone who knows about this are welcome to comment.

Thanks for the info and insights....I also enjoy a good discussion/debate.

I agree with your towing assessment...but another area I’d like to explore is the whole concept of putting a 2.0 litre 4-banger in a big vehicle that weighs over 4 thousand pounds...that can carry up to 7 people, their luggage and tow another 2,000 pounds? That seems like a lot of stress for a small motor...or am I being old-fashioned? Isn’t this the same motor originally designed of the Golf GTI? The power (HP & Torque) are probably acceptable, but what I’m concerned about is the stress on the motor. Is there any long term history/data to support this kind of configuration...or is it just a silly trend by automakers to improve fuel economy numbers on paper? Or am I just rambling...? LOL

Like many others, I too was confused about the 2.0T motor and VW listing premium unleaded in the adverts for the 2018 model...but that messaging seems to have magically disappeared for current models. Funny how that happens. My guess it’s because there seems to be a trend lately in the CUV/SUV market where companies are trying to squeeze the most out of 4-bangers by upping the horsepower (and compression ratios)...which is requiring those motors to use premium unleaded...and VW doesn’t want people to think they need to put expensive gas in their cars to seem more competitive. Makes sense to me. 🤓

Also I fully understand the difference between regular and premium unleaded...especially in turbo/super-charged applications where the compression ratios are very high. The 2.0T in the Atlas seems to be at 10.5:1 under normal load, and up to 13:1 under boost (could be wrong...just going by the Wikipedia article listed below). If that is accurate, then 13:1 is easily managed with good regular gas...ie. little-to-no knock. When you start pushing high compression ratios (like a super-charged car I have that goes up to 24:1 😬)...then premium is a must!

I did some checking and I don’t fully understand why you keep calling the 2.0T motor in the Atlas the EA888? I believe it’s the EA113...the EA888 is very close in design (I think it was based on the EA113)...and is currently used in the Tiguan. The source of my info: List of Volkswagen Group petrol engines - Wikipedia

Cheers! 🍺

 

[KarstGeo]

Thanks for the info and insights....I also enjoy a good discussion/debate.

I agree with your towing assessment...but another area I’d like to explore is the whole concept of putting a 2.0 litre 4-banger in a big vehicle that weighs over 4 thousand pounds...that can carry up to 7 people, their luggage and tow another 2,000 pounds? That seems like a lot of stress for a small motor...or am I being old-fashioned? Isn’t this the same motor originally designed of the Golf GTI? The power (HP & Torque) are probably acceptable, but what I’m concerned about is the stress on the motor. Is there any long term history/data to support this kind of configuration...or is it just a silly trend by automakers to improve fuel economy numbers on paper? Or am I just rambling...? LOL

Like many others, I too was confused about the 2.0T motor and VW listing premium unleaded in the adverts for the 2018 model...but that messaging seems to have magically disappeared for current models. Funny how that happens. My guess it’s because there seems to be a trend lately in the CUV/SUV market where companies are trying to squeeze the most out of 4-bangers by upping the horsepower (and compression ratios)...which is requiring those motors to use premium unleaded...and VW doesn’t want people to think they need to put expensive gas in their cars to seem more competitive. Makes sense to me. 🤓

Also I fully understand the difference between regular and premium unleaded...especially in turbo/super-charged applications where the compression ratios are very high. The 2.0T in the Atlas seems to be at 10.5:1 under normal load, and up to 13:1 under boost (could be wrong...just going by the Wikipedia article listed below). If that is accurate, then 13:1 is easily managed with good regular gas...ie. little-to-no knock. When you start pushing high compression ratios (like a super-charged car I have that goes up to 24:1 😬)...then premium is a must!

I did some checking and I don’t fully understand why you keep calling the 2.0T motor in the Atlas the EA888? I believe it’s the EA113...the EA888 is very close in design (I think it was based on the EA113)...and is currently used in the Tiguan. The source of my info: List of Volkswagen Group petrol engines - Wikipedia

Cheers! 🍺

The 2.0 can happily run on reg/87 gas as VW recommends as the min. octane rating. Running Premium will give you a little more top-end power and there is wording in the manual to that effect - stated power numbers were achieved using premium fuel comes from the reduction in timing correction at high-RPM but don't mistake timing correction with anything dangerous or that is harmful - all a normal part of the ECU's function.

The 2.0 in the Atlas is the same engine used in the GTI and IS the EA888. The 2.0 in the Tiguan is the b-cycle (Budak) engine that has a lower power output.

 

[STHEONE]

Thanks for the info and insights....I also enjoy a good discussion/debate.

I agree with your towing assessment...but another area I’d like to explore is the whole concept of putting a 2.0 litre 4-banger in a big vehicle that weighs over 4 thousand pounds...that can carry up to 7 people, their luggage and tow another 2,000 pounds? That seems like a lot of stress for a small motor...or am I being old-fashioned? Isn’t this the same motor originally designed of the Golf GTI? The power (HP & Torque) are probably acceptable, but what I’m concerned about is the stress on the motor. Is there any long term history/data to support this kind of configuration...or is it just a silly trend by automakers to improve fuel economy numbers on paper? Or am I just rambling...? LOL

Like many others, I too was confused about the 2.0T motor and VW listing premium unleaded in the adverts for the 2018 model...but that messaging seems to have magically disappeared for current models. Funny how that happens. My guess it’s because there seems to be a trend lately in the CUV/SUV market where companies are trying to squeeze the most out of 4-bangers by upping the horsepower (and compression ratios)...which is requiring those motors to use premium unleaded...and VW doesn’t want people to think they need to put expensive gas in their cars to seem more competitive. Makes sense to me. 🤓

Also I fully understand the difference between regular and premium unleaded...especially in turbo/super-charged applications where the compression ratios are very high. The 2.0T in the Atlas seems to be at 10.5:1 under normal load, and up to 13:1 under boost (could be wrong...just going by the Wikipedia article listed below). If that is accurate, then 13:1 is easily managed with good regular gas...ie. little-to-no knock. When you start pushing high compression ratios (like a super-charged car I have that goes up to 24:1 😬)...then premium is a must!

I did some checking and I don’t fully understand why you keep calling the 2.0T motor in the Atlas the EA888? I believe it’s the EA113...the EA888 is very close in design (I think it was based on the EA113)...and is currently used in the Tiguan. The source of my info: List of Volkswagen Group petrol engines - Wikipedia

Cheers! 🍺

Thank you for the reply.
First of all, it is EA888 Gen 3😂. Volkswagen Atlas - Wikipedia Here's what Wiki has about Atlas. I only did a rough search online. EA113 you mentioned is TFSI, EA888 is TSI. I guess that's the main difference?

If not for the cheap price of the Atlas, I personally always prefer a bigger engine. So yeah, a little old fashioned 😅.
I assume, a 300hp 2.0T and a 300hp 3.0T running at peak power would consume similar amount of fuel and air, because of you know, physics. It's the less-than-peak scenario where smaller engine will shine. Less weight, less cyl, less displacement, equal to less fuel consumption. And for daily use, 99% of the time we are using the engine at less-than-peak level. And it's cheaper, That's why it is getting so popular. And make higher end cars more accessible.

As for your thought on "small horse large wagon", I partially agree. To be fair, with much newer technology, engines are more efficient, though they are getting smaller, getting less cyl, they have higher power to liter, or power per cyl ratios. So for the most user out there, for a compact SUV and alike, a 2.0T is well enough. Even for big cars like Atlas, BMW X5 and alike, high-output 2.0T offers less power than a bigger engine but it also saves weight. So it can still be properly quick off the line. Overtake on the highway does not feel any push in the back, but the speed goes up quickly enough. May feel a bit gasping for power when you are trying to floor it for fun, but for majority user scenarios (daily commute, city, highway, grocery trip, weekend road trip, etc), it is enough. I think the occasion where you simultaneously fill the car with 7 people and full of luggage while towing a 5000lbs trailer to be very rare😂.

Yes initially the 2.0T was for Golf and Jetta, for a 3-Series, for C-Class. But now they are on the big Atlas, the luxurious 7-Series, S-Class (in some regions), and even sports car like F-Type. For modern car engineering, almost everything is modular. Each same physical part can be reconfigured for a different car model to save cost. The majority of the parts of 2.0T from a 2020 Golf and a 2020 Atlas should be the same. The tuning is different and there may be some detailed change to accommodate for Atlas's heavier load and different user scenarios (more daily, less fun drive, etc).

Carmakers here also played with the gear ratios to make the car feel "more powerful" off the line. Of all the vehicles I've driven, 2016 Mustangs, 2.3T vs 5.0L V8, BMW 4-Series 2.0T vs 3.0T and 3.0 twinturbo (M4), and others, smaller 4 cyl engines always feel "more powerful" off the line because of a very short 1st gear. This can of course increase the happiness of everyday grocery drive for an average owner. So even after the test drive, some people would choose the smaller engine. (Like I did with my Cross Sport).

So overall, I think this is more of a trade-off problem that each customer has to deal with. With the VR6, on the up side, you get about 30+hp, you can worry less when you have your car filled with people and luggage and towing a trailer. On the down side, the VR6 powertrain it's heavier, thus the actual effective hp gain is less, there's more deadweight you are dragging. And more cyl roughly equals slightly worse fuel economy for city driving.

As for the fuel grade, I didn't know about 2018 and 2019 models. But they did claimed that 87 was acceptable for the EA888. (on the inside of the filler cap, it says 87 minimum, 89 recommended) Maybe the reason is like what you said.
Nowadays everything in the car, the trans software (TCU), the ECU, the anti-knocking, everything is "adaptive". So even for a supercharged vehicle with a 24:1 compression ratio like you said, as long as 87 is claimed acceptable, the engineers can make it work. Use software to detect knock and adjust timing and relative stuff to prevent knock for the next time. The end result is like I mentioned in the last post, lower grade fuel equals less power output. The ECU will try its best to protect the engine from blowing up. So no worries. If you put 87 in a 91minimum car, the CEL(Check Engine Light) will come on and the engine will not run, because the ECU protection is "out of range".

As for the potential of the 2.0T, AMG's 2.0T is other carmakers' pioneering example LOL (That small dude can crank up 400+hp stable).

 

[JimGravelle]

Thank you for the reply.
First of all, it is EA888 Gen 3😂. Volkswagen Atlas - Wikipedia Here's what Wiki has about Atlas. I only did a rough search online. EA113 you mentioned is TFSI, EA888 is TSI. I guess that's the main difference?

That was the exact page I started on when trying to find what engines were in the Atlas...if you click one of the engine links on the right under “Powertrain” it will take you to the page I linked in a previous post (great minds...LOL). What’s confusing on that page is they have the EA113 listed under the North American Atlas, and the EA888 listed under the Chinese Teramont. Perhaps someone need to contact the author to fix things.

If not for the cheap price of the Atlas, I personally always prefer a bigger engine. So yeah, a little old fashioned 😅.
I assume, a 300hp 2.0T and a 300hp 3.0T running at peak power would consume similar amount of fuel and air, because of you know, physics. It's the less-than-peak scenario where smaller engine will shine. Less weight, less cyl, less displacement, equal to less fuel consumption. And for daily use, 99% of the time we are using the engine at less-than-peak level. And it's cheaper, That's why it is getting so popular. And make higher end cars more accessible.

Too bad VW doesn’t offer a V6 3.0T engine like they do for the Q7. They probably figure it would be too expensive...but I’m sure it would make for a sweet ride! We could debate all day which would use less fuel (2.0T vs 3.0T), but the reality is you couldn’t build a 2.0T engine to have the same power (HP and torque) as a 3.0T...assuming you are using the same build quality, turbos, etc. I figure all car manufacturers (not just VW) are going with the smaller engines (and thinner oils...more on this in another thread) to meet fuel economy ratings for both government requirements and marketing...not to make higher end cars more accessible. The latter being the job of the the stealer-ship’s finance folks offering 7 & 8 year financing.

As for your thought on "small horse large wagon", I partially agree. To be fair, with much newer technology, engines are more efficient, though they are getting smaller, getting less cyl, they have higher power to liter, or power per cyl ratios. So for the most user out there, for a compact SUV and alike, a 2.0T is well enough. Even for big cars like Atlas, BMW X5 and alike, high-output 2.0T offers less power than a bigger engine but it also saves weight. So it can still be properly quick off the line. Overtake on the highway does not feel any push in the back, but the speed goes up quickly enough. May feel a bit gasping for power when you are trying to floor it for fun, but for majority user scenarios (daily commute, city, highway, grocery trip, weekend road trip, etc), it is enough. I think the occasion where you simultaneously fill the car with 7 people and full of luggage while towing a 5000lbs trailer to be very rare😂.

You are probably right. The other thing is most people don’t buy cars to last anymore...especially millennials (now I’m showing my age...oops). I buy a car to last me a while, not to flip in 3-5 years. Chances are the folks that are fine with the 2.0T in a vehicle that is almost 4,500 lbs (without anyone in it) don’t worry about premature engine wear because they won’t have it that long. I have a 2.0T in my Tiguan...which works just fine for it’s “compact” size. But for a larger beast like the Atlas it doesn’t seem right to me. 🧐

Yes initially the 2.0T was for Golf and Jetta, for a 3-Series, for C-Class. But now they are on the big Atlas, the luxurious 7-Series, S-Class (in some regions), and even sports car like F-Type. For modern car engineering, almost everything is modular. Each same physical part can be reconfigured for a different car model to save cost. The majority of the parts of 2.0T from a 2020 Golf and a 2020 Atlas should be the same. The tuning is different and there may be some detailed change to accommodate for Atlas's heavier load and different user scenarios (more daily, less fun drive, etc).

I checked and the 2020 Golf is a 1.4T, not a 2.0T...and it’s a front wheel drive car that is just under 3,000 lbs (actually a lot heavier than you would think). Were you thinking of the Golf GTI? If so, the 2.0T engine in the GTI compared to the Atlas is very close in numbers, with the Altas have slightly higher HP (235 vs 228)...with the exact same torque numbers...but the fuel economy is very different (City: 21 vs 24 / Hwy: 24 vs 32). Which is clearly due to the greater size and shape of the Atlas. Yes, its the same engine, albeit tuned slightly differently, but you can’t deny it has to work that much harder to move the Atlas. So chances are the same engine won’t last as long in the Atlas compared to a Golf GTI (or even the Jetta). Ya can’t deny the logic. 🤓

Carmakers here also played with the gear ratios to make the car feel "more powerful" off the line. Of all the vehicles I've driven, 2016 Mustangs, 2.3T vs 5.0L V8, BMW 4-Series 2.0T vs 3.0T and 3.0 twinturbo (M4), and others, smaller 4 cyl engines always feel "more powerful" off the line because of a very short 1st gear. This can of course increase the happiness of everyday grocery drive for an average owner. So even after the test drive, some people would choose the smaller engine. (Like I did with my Cross Sport).

True...gearing is important...not to mention the smaller engines typically have smaller turbos, that spin up quicker, giving you that slightly faster push off the line. If you take a look at the power curve you’ll see the torque hits (and typically peaks) earlier on the smaller engines...but the larger engines will typically catch them in 2nd and 3rd gear. 😬

So overall, I think this is more of a trade-off problem that each customer has to deal with. With the VR6, on the up side, you get about 30+hp, you can worry less when you have your car filled with people and luggage and towing a trailer. On the down side, the VR6 powertrain it's heavier, thus the actual effective hp gain is less, there's more deadweight you are dragging. And more cyl roughly equals slightly worse fuel economy for city driving.

IMHO I believe the VR6 is a better choice for me because I usually keep my cars for a least 10 years...and as much as I like turbos (had a few Jetta TDIs over the years)...I’m thinking the VR6 will be less expensive to maintain. That old adage: less complicated / less to go wrong (did I ever mention I had a turbo failure on a TDI with only 130,000 kms on it? It was a “known issue with premature bearing failure”...$2,000 later...Ouch!) According to a few websites, the VR6 is only 125-200 lbs heavier then the 2.0T...which isn’t too horrible. That of course was based on comparing the curb weight of the Atlas Cross Sport on three different sites...and making sure I was comparing AWD models at the same trim level. Keep in mind the base 2.0T engine may be a lot lighter...but it has all the extra baggage of a turbo and intercooler.

As for the fuel grade, I didn't know about 2018 and 2019 models. But they did claimed that 87 was acceptable for the EA888. (on the inside of the filler cap, it says 87 minimum, 89 recommended) Maybe the reason is like what you said.
Nowadays everything in the car, the trans software (TCU), the ECU, the anti-knocking, everything is "adaptive". So even for a supercharged vehicle with a 24:1 compression ratio like you said, as long as 87 is claimed acceptable, the engineers can make it work. Use software to detect knock and adjust timing and relative stuff to prevent knock for the next time. The end result is like I mentioned in the last post, lower grade fuel equals less power output. The ECU will try its best to protect the engine from blowing up. So no worries. If you put 87 in a 91minimum car, the CEL(Check Engine Light) will come on and the engine will not run, because the ECU protection is "out of range".

Yes...modern engines definitely do a better job of detecting and compensating for engine knock. Personally I just don’t like the idea of putting the engine thru it...”engine knock” just doesn’t sound good to me! My supercharged car calls for 91 octane (premium) on the fuel door and does have the ability for me to manually retard the timing so I can put in a lower grade fuel (aside from the knock sensor) if premium is not available. But I wouldn’t do that to the car...it’s my baby!

As for the potential of the 2.0T, AMG's 2.0T is other carmakers' pioneering example LOL (That small dude can crank up 400+hp stable).

That is wild! I’m sure with the proper engineering, metallurgy and a plethora of turbos that could be possible with most cars...but how much is that bad boy? I’m guessing the engine costs almost as much as that 2020 Golf GTI we mentioned earlier. LOL.

Cheers!

<- keeping it light with smilies!